Posts by Anders Andersen

51

Help needed: transgender people and other unclear topics

by TeaBiscuit in

first of all, i am not quite sure whether this is the right place to ask my questions.

if this is not really appropriate, please tell me in advance, but i really did not know who to turn to, so i thought why not ask the internet... now, i know many of you are apostates and i'm not really looking for "leave it all behind you" answers, but really for experiences, thoughts and ideas... as well as maybe some verses if you can think of any.. anyway, first things first.

since this is very anonymous and i'd like to keep it that way, i will not give you my name, but still, i think some background info might be helpful.

Anders Andersen

@TeaBiscuit,

Although I don't know anyone who is transgender and I am not transgender myself this seemed extremely cruel to me.[...]
And since this particular handling of a situation seemed just plainly wrong to me I started asking myself if there might be other things that are not as they should be

I think this shows you're a reasonable person, who is caring for his/her fellow human beings. Taking their feelings into account. So, I present to you some Bible verses that may help you with your decision.

These verses show you how much Jehovah cares about the feelings of human beings. You can do the math on the transgender question yourself. If you think forcing a person to live according to his/her biological gender is cruel, read on.

Please look the verses up in your own Bible. Read them.
Try to identify yourself or someone you love (especially sister or daughter if you have those) with the subjects in the verses.
Keep in mind who supposedly invented these laws quoted: Jehovah.

Raped girls are forced to marry their rapist
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)
Prisoners of war can be forced to marry (aka raped)
“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. [...] However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.” (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Humans can be traded like cattle
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Female slaves can be forced to marry (aka raped)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. [...] And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.[...] (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
Slaves may be severely beaten as long as they don't die the same day
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
People with mutilated or defective sex organs are not as acceptable to Jehovah as other people are
“No man who has been castrated by having his testicles crushed or who has had his male organ cut off may come into the congregation of Jehovah. (Deut 23:1)
Ugly people and people with various other defects are not as acceptable to Jehovah as other people are
18 If there is any man who has a defect, he may not approach: a man who is blind or lame or has a disfigured face* or one limb too long, 19 a man with a fractured foot or a fractured hand, 20 a hunchback or a dwarf,* or a man with an eye defect or eczema or ringworm or damaged testicles.+ (Lev 21:18-20)

Yes, there's more where this is coming from.
Remember, Jehovah does not change!

And in case you reason "this was normal in ancient times, Jehovah just regulated (bad) human customs": The Israelites had multiple laws to were intended to set them apart from the rest of the world: keep the Sabbath, don't cut your beard, blue ribbon and fringes in your clothes, don't eat blood, etc.
Why not respect basic human right and give laws that forbid rape, slavery, discrimination, and others abuse?

If you're really worried about how Watchtower and God think about transgenders, maybe the verses above give you an idea about the morals of your God.

Apparently He doesn't really care about the feelings of human beings, and destroyed lives are not His concern. At least He doesn't care about women and people with 'defects' much, and men are not his concern when the are POW or slaves.

Or maybe it's just all ancient human laws, that really have no divine origin...

19

disfellowshipped wife, husband still a jw

by thereishope in

i'm new here and haven't introduced myself yet, but have been lurking for the past couple of weeks and learned so much!

quick first question: if i get disfellowshipped for researching info on websites other than jw.org (the official website), how can i expect to be treated by my husband still in the truth?

ie what will he be told by the elders about how to treat me?

Anders Andersen

Most likely your husband (as 'head of the family') will be told to reason with you until you quit doing 'spiritually dangerous' sites like this.

That's most likely all.

Of course your husband will have his own reaction. You know him better than we do (I hope :-))

9

What about hermaphrodites?

by neat blue dog in

a recent post about transgender people made me think.

i think its obvious that transgenders and homosexuals are easily banned in jwdom because the people in question were clearly born with their respective sex organs.. however.

what about intersex people aka hermaphrodites?

Anders Andersen

Copy-paste from my answer on the transgender thread. Person described had (incomplete) external sex organs of both genders.

I personally know of someone who was raised as a boy (external sex organs indicated as much), felt more like a woman during puberty, and (after chromosome testing) turned out to actually be a woman biologically.
Only after producing the test results she was permitted/ordered by Bethel to be a woman from now on. Oh, a corrective surgery (removing the man-like parts) was also done (possibly because Bethel 'encouraged' it).
Imagine this person would have been a guy by chromosomes, but still identified as a woman? Instant disfellowshipping! Or she would have to act like a man, and lie to herself the rest of her JW life.

51

Help needed: transgender people and other unclear topics

by TeaBiscuit in

first of all, i am not quite sure whether this is the right place to ask my questions.

if this is not really appropriate, please tell me in advance, but i really did not know who to turn to, so i thought why not ask the internet... now, i know many of you are apostates and i'm not really looking for "leave it all behind you" answers, but really for experiences, thoughts and ideas... as well as maybe some verses if you can think of any.. anyway, first things first.

since this is very anonymous and i'd like to keep it that way, i will not give you my name, but still, i think some background info might be helpful.

Anders Andersen

Male JW will be 'counseled' when their clothing style, hair, speech or manners are 'too feminine'.

Female JW will be 'counseled' when their clothing style, hair, speech or manners are 'too masculine'.

'Counseled' means to be coercively talked to until you either give in, or can be reproved for disregarding the elders' authority.

I'm not even talking cross dressing here. Just a female with very short hair who (mostly) wears pants and shirts will be viewed and treated as spiritually weak.

Or a male with soft voice and many delicate gestures (think Prince).

Anybody who deviates from the norm as portrayed in the pictures in the literature will be looked down upon.

And yes, your biological gender determines how you should act and be dressed.

I personally know of someone who was raised as a boy (external sex organs indicated as much), felt more like a woman during puberty, and (after chromosome testing) turned out to actually be a woman biologically.

Only after producing the test results she was permitted/ordered by Bethel to be a woman from now on. Oh, a corrective surgery (removing the man-like parts) was also done (possibly because Bethel 'encouraged' it).

Imagine this person would have been a guy by chromosomes, but still identified as a woman? Instant disfellowshipping! Or she would have to act like a man, and lie to herself the rest of her JW life.

And yes, it's a cult. Run.

Be religious with a different group if you must. Maybe a group that actually worships God instead of the Governing Body. But you know that already)

5

Humans only been here 6,000 years but at least they were drunk!

by notsurewheretogo in

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-36365967.

great article...chinese were brewing beer 5,000 years ago.... not bad considering it's not far off adam & eve... :).

.. .. chinese drinkers may have been brewing beer as many as 5,000 years ago, new research suggests.. us and chinese researchers say they found traces of barley, millet, grain, and tubers used in fermentation.. it was found on pottery discovered in shaanxi province in northern china during an archaeological dig 10 years ago.. it would be the earliest known instance of beer-making in china and suggest a sophisticated approach.. published in the us proceedings of the national academy of sciences, the study also suggested that barley may have been used for booze before being used for food.. as every home-brewer knows, funnels are an essential piece of kit.

Anders Andersen

Nice!

In Armenia they managed to make wine some decades before Adam and Eve were even created .

Must have been some hard work growing grapes outside of Eden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_winery

And then 2000 years before that they already had 'winey nights in Georgia'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/now-thats-what-you-call-a-real-vintage-professor-unearths-8000-year-old-wine-84179.html

53

"The Bunker" WT Conventions 2016 (Gag Me)

by Poztate in

in the very near future the gang will be down in a bunker,cellar awaiting the police,military to break in and take them away to camps or executions .

(paranoid much) this is the foretold "prophecy" of the governments turning on religion and saving them for last.since the couple portrayed as simplifying their life by getting rid of a lot of material things is shown to be (about) the same age in the bunker we know it must be any minute now that it will happen.

i have been out for over 35 years and things seem to be getting more bizarre each year.. when did this doctrine really become main stream?

Anders Andersen

Hey WingCommander,

You're from a very good year :-D ;-)

57

You wear tight pants and you will be in trouble

by wannaexit in

jw
friends

i was reading in another forum, that a letter to the elders instructed them to speak to anybody who persists in wearing tight pants.

if changes don't happen then the instructions are to disqualify him from being a publisher but it won't be announced to the congregation.

i am am curious to see if this letter will surface.

Anders Andersen

One of the telltale signs of cults according to the BITE model is controlling what cult members are (not) allowed to wear for clothing.

Cult.

53

"The Bunker" WT Conventions 2016 (Gag Me)

by Poztate in

in the very near future the gang will be down in a bunker,cellar awaiting the police,military to break in and take them away to camps or executions .

(paranoid much) this is the foretold "prophecy" of the governments turning on religion and saving them for last.since the couple portrayed as simplifying their life by getting rid of a lot of material things is shown to be (about) the same age in the bunker we know it must be any minute now that it will happen.

i have been out for over 35 years and things seem to be getting more bizarre each year.. when did this doctrine really become main stream?

Anders Andersen

Remember Waco, anyone?

A Seventh-day Adventist sect (so theological cousins of Watchtower) claiming Armageddon was imminent.

Then the authorities came to their compound (bunkers?) to investigate allegations of child sexual abuse.

The rest is history :-(

I'll make a note of that on my FB on convention Saturday. Prime some minds to see the similarities.

70

Someone anonymously tipped the elders?

by raven in

so here an update on my current situation, in a nutshell i've been trying to quietly fade for the past 5 months.. well, my mom somehow found out that i am currently fading and that i live with my boyfriend (for more info on this check my previous posts) i told her yes i live with him and yes i no longer want to be a jw.

anyways, yesterday she met my boyfriend.. awkward.

and after lunch she pulled me aside to tell me that the po came up to her (he was part of my jc when i was reproved) he said to her "someone came to me and said - i cannot say who so they will remain anonymous- but that your daughter is living with someone" my mom confirmed and apparently he told her that i have one week to confess this, and if i don't my parents are obligated to tell them everything.. what kind of nonsense is that?

Anders Andersen

Raven,

Like you said: it's none of their business. Not now. Not ever.

The fact that cult leaders insert themselves inappropriately in (ex) members' lives based on ancient tales doesn't make it right either.

Your life. Your decisions. Your business.

Everyone else (including your mom) should mind their own business.

Just remember this down the road in case the pressure increases.

17

Belgium Bethel on sale...

by sp74bb in

jw
friends

according to our sources belgium bethel will be very soon closed and the building sold.... selters germany bethel will take care of this area....

Anders Andersen

Very interested on news regarding Dutch branch. Without audio/video dept (which they just upgraded!) it's only Central Purchasing left (if they still have that).

This branch was just renovated and expanded....will be a way too big and expensive RTO I guess?